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    interviews

    Tom Furgas

    By Don Campau | 31 October 2011

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    Tom Furgas

    Tom Furgas

    The first tape I ever traded with a stranger was Tom’s “Mayor Of Rain” in 1984.

    The first tape I ever traded with a stranger was Tom’s “Mayor Of Rain” in 1984.

    “The Son Of The Mayor Of Rain” from 1988. Like many of his releases, filled to the brim with new ideas and angles.

    “The Son Of The Mayor Of Rain” from 1988. Like many of his releases, filled to the brim with new ideas and angles.

    Tom has a love for modern classical piano music and that esthetic sometimes informs his own music and even the minimal approach to the cover on this keyboard tape from 1987.

    Tom has a love for modern classical piano music and that esthetic sometimes informs his own music and even the minimal approach to the cover on this keyboard tape from 1987.

    His “48 Inventions” from 1983-8.

    His “48 Inventions” from 1983-8.

    Essentially a “bedroom rock” project, Tom provided most of the music ( with some occasional help from others) and Bill Lehman did the lyrics and vocals in Courtesy Patrol. They had at least a couple of tapes, this one from 1986.

    Essentially a “bedroom rock” project, Tom provided most of the music ( with some occasional help from others) and Bill Lehman did the lyrics and vocals in Courtesy Patrol. They had at least a couple of tapes, this one from 1986.

    Tom has collaborated with many other home recording artists. Ken Clinger has often been an artistic foil for him. On the 1991 tape above he works his way through some free improvisations pieces with guitarist Chip Handy as the project, The Militant Musicians Pond.

    Tom has collaborated with many other home recording artists. Ken Clinger has often been an artistic foil for him. On the 1991 tape above he works his way through some free improvisations pieces with guitarist Chip Handy as the project, The Militant Musicians Pond.

    Not only does Tom send you the only copy of the work but he also hand draws,paints, or glues images onto the cover. This is total Art with a capital A and in my humble opinion is what is missing from much of todays “underground” or independent scene. Tom Furgas’ work is never “product” but unique art stylings.

    Not only does Tom send you the only copy of the work but he also hand draws,paints, or glues images onto the cover. This is total Art with a capital A and in my humble opinion is what is missing from much of todays “underground” or independent scene. Tom Furgas’ work is never “product” but unique art stylings.

    Above and below, some pictures of Tom Furgas limited edition 12 CD set produced in 2003. This massive work featured tons of Tom solo pieces and also contributions from Dino DiMuro, Mark Hanley, Bill Lehman, Don Campau, Zan Hoffman, John Oswald, Mark Chuey and Ken Clinger.

    Above and below, some pictures of Tom Furgas limited edition 12 CD set produced in 2003. This massive work featured tons of Tom solo pieces and also contributions from Dino DiMuro, Mark Hanley, Bill Lehman, Don Campau, Zan Hoffman, John Oswald, Mark Chuey and Ken Clinger.

    From 2006 a collab with Ohio’s Eric Wallack. Tom uses the Roland Groovebox and synth. Eric employs a mac G4 and also Chapman Stick and acoustic bass.

    From 2006 a collab with Ohio’s Eric Wallack. Tom uses the Roland Groovebox and synth. Eric employs a mac G4 and also Chapman Stick and acoustic bass.

    Tom’s design vision sometimes runs to the austere somewhat like Ken Clinger’s. Over the last few years he has produced a sizable quantity of work for piano, electronics, harpsichord and more. You can see how he goes very minimal on these covers.

    Tom’s design vision sometimes runs to the austere somewhat like Ken Clinger’s. Over the last few years he has produced a sizable quantity of work for piano, electronics, harpsichord and more. You can see how he goes very minimal on these covers.

    Relay Music was a project began in the cassette days using digital delay and synth to create sound that unfolds slowly. He continued this project into the CD age in 2000 with the release of this CD

    Relay Music was a project began in the cassette days using digital delay and synth to create sound that unfolds slowly. He continued this project into the CD age in 2000 with the release of this CD

    Tom uses the 3” CD to good effect on one of his OneOfAKind projects.

    Tom uses the 3” CD to good effect on one of his OneOfAKind projects.

    A couple of OneOfAKind tape covers. Tom uses a picture sent from Zan Hoffman and then details the inner cover and signs it. From 1990.

    A couple of OneOfAKind tape covers. Tom uses a picture sent from Zan Hoffman and then details the inner cover and signs it. From 1990.

    Above and below, a tape and inner cover from 1992.

    Above and below, a tape and inner cover from 1992.

    From 1990, another OneOfAKind cassette by Tom Furgas.

    From 1990, another OneOfAKind cassette by Tom Furgas.

    Tom does not have a web site currently but you can email him at: tfurgas  (at)  cisnet.com

    Tom does not have a web site currently but you can email him at: tfurgas (at) cisnet.com

    Tom Furgas from Youngstown, Ohio was the first stranger I ever traded tapes with. He sent me his “Mayor Of Rain “ tape in 1984, I believe. Right off the bat I was pumped up about this tape trading network, this chance to connect with like minded creators outside of my normal life. Little did I know that this would become my “normal” life soon enough. His music was unexpected and interesting and he even had constructive criticisms for my own tape which I appreciated. Always honest and open, consumed by the creative urge and lover of many types of music, Tom and I lost touch for a while in the late 90s but then reconnected when we started trading music from our collections, and, of course, our own new creations. We even collaborated on an album, “Marching On”. I’ve never met Tom in person and yet I consider him a very good friend.

    What are some of your earliest memories of hearing music at home?Was it important to you then…or was there another trigger later, perhaps The Beatles or something?

    I think my real love of music began in kindergarten, when I was 5 years old. The teacher (dear Mrs. Loag) would play the piano while we kids were seated on the floor, singing nursery rhymes and folk songs. Also, when I was 5 I wanted, and got, a record player for Christmas that year, along with tons of records. I was totally hooked. The Beatles came later (1963 or so, when I was in third grade). Saw them on Ed Sullivan on TV, of course, as we all did. I’ve loved their music ever since.

    Did you take piano lessons at an early age?

    Yes, I told my parents I wanted to play the piano, so they bought a massive old upright piano and took me to lessons with a Mrs. Schwartz. She and her husband were very well-to-do; my lessons were on a grand piano! I also had a few lessons with her daughter Lucille, mostly playing duets in order to learn ensemble playing. These lessons continued for six or seven years. Then I took lessons with a high school friend, Tom Sovik, and had a series of other teachers after him, including Roman Rudnytsky at the Dana School in the early 1970’s.

    When/ how did you hear about the tape trading/home recording scene?

    I had been doing primitive home taping since I was 14 or so, with a portable cassette recorder and any sound-producing thing I could lay my hands on (acoustic guitars, electric organ, zither, harmonica, percussion of all kinds, found objects, etc.). But I really started doing more serious work in 1980 when I got my first synthesizer (an ARP Solus). I wanted to share my music with other musicians but didn’t know how to get ahold of anyone, so I wrote to Keyboard magazine asking for musical pen pals. They published my letter and I heard from a really cool guy in Sweden, Lennart Ostman, but the really important contact was with C.W. Vrtacek in Milford, Connecticut. He introduced me to OP magazine, where I found the very active and fecund home-taping network.

    Who were some of your early trading partners?

    Aside from Lennart and Vrtacek there was Mike Roden, a really fun synthesizer player and comic-book artist. Through OP I found many of my still-current trading friends, Zan Hoffman, Dino DiMuro, Ken Clinger, Mark Kissinger, Mark Hanley, and, of course, YOU, Don. Many others, most of whom I have lost touch with since. The trading scene was most intense for me between 1985-1996 or so. By 1996 the effort and cost became too much for me and I began to trim back my recording and trading activities.

    You were the first stranger I ever traded tapes with after I saw your “will trade” comment in Option magazine. What prompted you to want to do this…as opposed to trying to sell you music?

    Well, I never thought of my stuff as being all that commercially viable. It wasn’t like anything that you could find in the record stores; Madonna, ZZ Top, what have you. I did try selling, and did sell a few here and there ($3 or $5; the three-dollar tapes were the experimental stuff like “Quantum Geometry Networks”, the five-dollar tapes were the more “accessible” ones) but I always preferred trading, in order to hear what other home-tapers were up to. And most of what I heard was creative, fun, fresh, original, and vital. There was no commercial motive, no profit incentive, behind it, just a love of pure music-making. That, to me was and remains the best thing about the home-taping scene. The music is totally uncorrupted, and totally free and original. Eschewing the profit motive is the ONLY way to get to hear music in it’s purest, most honest, state, I think.

    When I got your early tapes I was blown away by your true experimentalism…throwing sounds and instruments together to see how it would sound. Did home recording and it’s possibilities excite you?

    I have always loved variety, juxtapositions, collage, and always strove for the maximum range of ideas and sounds. It was when I got my first four-track recorder, in 1987, that I was really able to do my best work. Until then I was overdubbing parts by bouncing tracks between two recorders (a technique I seriously thought I had invented until I learned that almost everyone else had tried it at some point!). One of the first things I did with my four-track was a 30-minute audio collage a-la Revolution 9, using everything I could find or invent, in four tracks (with one track dedicated to being played backwards throughout). I wish I had done more collages like that, but in retrospect I realize that I really fulfilled my desires for a kitchen-sink collage-symphony with that one piece (called “Eternal Lasts Longest”).

    And what about the trading part…did it make you feel part of a community? Did you ever receive a tape that you hated but then grew to love later?

    I felt as though I was a part of a whole universe that no one outside of it had any comprehension of. Whenever I would discuss the whole scene with a co-worker or friend they were usually baffled or completely uninterested in it. I couldn’t understand that at all. But I totally loved getting to know other musicians, trading, writing letters, exchanging ideas, and also having the occasional blow-up and piss-off. I had my difficult moments with some great artists, out of pure egoism or jealousy. Naturally that kind of thing occurred with some of the greatest musicians out there, such as Zan Hoffman or R. Stevie Moore. I still feel like a total moron for rocking the boat with them!

    Yes, there were some tapes I loathed at first, but grew to love once I understood that they, like the most of the music I was hearing through this scene, was based on pure creative impulses and utter disinterest in being commercially profitable. There were also some tapes that I hated and never got to like…the really grungy ones that struck me as lazy and unfocused. But it would have been inhuman for every tape ever made to be flawless and 100% great. I came to expect the good, the bad, and the ugly, and tried my best to appreciate ALL of it.

    One thing you tried was looping on old eight track tapes. Did you think of this by yourself…or had you heard of it before?

    That technique was introduced to me by a non-musician friend, Steve Olinick. He was just messing around with a broken 8-track tape; cracked it open and cut the tape into a short loop and then put the casing back together. I instantly saw the potential of such a technique and began to employ it myself. I never did credit him sufficiently for his invention until now.

    You also had a duo with Bill Lehman called Courtesy Patrol. How did this come about? There were definite songs and not just improvs. Was this material thought out beforehand? Who wrote what?

    The original band was The Fringe, with Rick Arkwright on guitar and bass and vocals, and Bill joined us on vocals a little bit after we got rolling. Just messing around in the living room, nothing really meant to be brilliant or the next Rolling Stones. Rick left for Florida in 1983 and Bill and I continued to work together under another name. Bill mostly wrote the lyrics; we had a huge pile of them on a clipboard from which we could select. Bill then took up guitar and we made some pretty good stuff after that point. We kept it going until 1996, which was when, as I mentioned, before, I began to back away from the full-scale commitment to taping and trading.

    You also wrote reviews for various publications. Did you ever have any troubling personal comments after a less than positive review of someone’s tape?

    Most artists accepted my less-than-glowing reviews as a natural part of being in a creative field. I did get a couple of nastygrams about my more scathing reviews, and I am glad I did; it helped me to be more sensitive to the artists when writing about their work. After a certain point I was getting so many tapes from OPtion to review that I simply did not review the stinkers, just the fair-to-excellent ones. This got to the point where I was only reviewing about 25% of what I received, which started to peeve the editors, understandably. But I didn’t really want them to publish a slew of bad reviews with my byline. I knew it would give me the reputation of a pain in the ass.

    Did you ever receive reviews of your own material? Good or bad, how did it make you feel?

    My very first published tape (no longer extant) “Sitting Without Flinching”, got terrible reviews, but deservedly so. It was a fun tape to make, but it was just too half-baked and poorly recorded to be worth many listenings. It didn’t really bother me; I knew I would get good reviews sooner or later, if I worked harder to make better stuff. Naturally the good reviews always gave me a lift, and spurred me on to keep working and enjoying it.

    You have done large amounts of solo work and also collaborations with a diverse bunch of musicians. I get the sense that you enjoy not knowing what will happen and that you are not a perfectionist. True?

    There is a large degree of Cagean philosophy behind that; that anything goes provided that zero is taken as the basis. That is, discarding likes and dislikes and letting things be themselves. I enjoyed collaborating with anyone at all; pop songwriters or free-improvisation, electronic noise, anything at all. I tried to supply or fill in the right kind of material for all of them, and often let the chips fall where they may. I try to get things right, but don’t always take pains to cross every “t” or dot every “i”. Perfectionism, I’ve found, can become the tail wagging the dog, where the end result is sometimes lost in the quest for a 100% polished expression. Anyway, something with all the margins cleaned up and all tidy and everything can look like the blood has been drained out of it. I like things to be just a little rough around the edges.

    Talk about your “OneOFAKind” releases. How did you think of this and do you ever regret not keeping or copying the master tapes for your own archives? Or do you?

    That idea was based on my trading with the great Canadian composer John Oswald. He was making Mystery Tapes, and issuing differing versions of each one, tweezing and perfecting them bit by bit. So many of the versions of a given tape were One Of A Kind, until he had finalized the release to his satisfaction. (In his case, the perfectionism added blood to them, not drained them!) But anyway, I thought; why not create tapes that are unique unto themselves, with no other copies. After all, an artist who creates drawings and paintings does not copy them endlessly; often there is only one version of a given work. The OneOfAKind tapes (as I call them) are all improvised and done on the spur of the moment; I have never taken great pains with writing out parts or such; I just find myself in a “lets make a record” mood and bash it out, keeping the element of fun in the forefront of my thinking. If something starts getting heavy or serious it has no place being a OneOfAKind disc. Things that I take more seriously I always keep the master and make copies, an “official” release, as it were. But no, I have never regretted not making copies of a given OneOfAKind tape or disc. Even when the tape or disc was damaged or destroyed somehow. That’s the breaks. That’s life.

    You have a deep love and regard for modern classical, world music and even some rock. However, you are not a big jazz fan. Why not?

    There is some jazz that I deeply love, such as Thelonious Monk and the electric Miles Davis stuff. And Gary Burton. But generally most jazz has this smarmy Las Vegas attitude that really turns me off. The honking saxophones, the fancy harmonies, the whole “Hey baby” vibe. Ugh. But I REALLY hate Country music, and Opera, and Polkas. And Gangsta Rap. In each of those kinds of music it is the underlying culture of the music that I can’t abide. But I like Bluegrass banjo, and Dixieland, provided there are no vocals with them.

    What have you learned about yourself from creating your music?

    That being creative is the most satisfying activity I can imagine. It fulfills a need that no other activity can match. I am a creative spirit, and I am very thankful that I have that spark, that inner flame that wants to share the joy of bringing forth something that never existed before.

    What keeps you interested now?

    At my age (I’ll be 57 in April) I find I am slowing down and not as active as I was before. But part of that is the simple fact that I have done so much work that it is harder and harder to think of something I have not tried as yet. But give me a new tool, a new piece of equipment, a new way of working, and I’ll be on fire again. This occurred when I got the Cakewalk program for my computer. Using that program I created over 20 or so “dot work” (.wrk) CD’s, between 2007-2010. I still dabble in them a little, but the main creative burst of that new tool and method has just about fulfilled it’s need. If I could get a Mac and have it loaded with Garageband, then…look out!

    You now have a duo with Mark Hanley called The Bliss Machine. Before you perform live ( or record) do you discuss what might happen or do you just let it unfold?

    It is improvised on the spot, but we do discuss what we might do next, or not do if some idea didn’t pan out. But we’ve been playing together for 11 years, on and off, and we are now at that point where there is no need to rehearse or discuss anything…we just play! The music shows us the way as it unfolds before us.

    Do you have any plans for getting a web site or posting your material online? What has the internet meant for your music and sense of community with others?

    I had thought of doing that, and sometimes still do, but I think the amount of work involved is just too much for me at this time. Maybe when I retire, if I ever can. The thing about a website is that it needs a constant influx of fresh material or it dies out. I don’t know if I could sustain that kind of activity. I tried a blog or two before, and realized that it was just too much work to be doing for free. But that’s just me; for many people I see that the challenge of sustaining a website is a great motivator. But for me a website would be more like a bookkeeping exercise. But some day I would like to publish my music, my art, poems, everything on a website and have it readily available to everyone. But again, that is a project for my retirement years, if any!

    Thanks,Tom

    Thank you, Don!

    Zan Hoffman
    I was once chastizing Tom about his spartan b+w tape cover, suggesting he should use color paper. His classic response was that the money he saved printing on white paper he could buy a granny smith apple. Tom is a tidy combination of adventurous and conservative forces. He unleashes his creative forces in visual, textual and auditory fields and gives us a distinct distillation of his extensive artistic influences.

    Al Margolis
    Tom Furgas always had one of the most distinct and recognizable sounds on the cassette scene – you could always tell a Tom tape

    Jack Jordan
    It is indeed a pleasure to have the opportunity to scribe a few lines about one of the Hometaping Scene’s true pioneers…the multi-talented Tom Furgas.

    Artist (some of his work hangs on my living-room wall), poet, prolific music critic from the days of Op/Option, reliable correspondent, and ever the continuing Musical Explorer, I’ve traded music with Tom since linking-up with him circa 1987 and have followed his musical development ever since. I remember the days in the early ‘90s when he pooh-poohed the idea of owning a computer…for many years now he has been well-versed in, and continues to explore, using digital technology to forge ahead in producing new music.

    Tom and I share a deep love for the ‘50s-‘70s “golden age” of avant-garde music by the 20th Century masters (not to mention some superb ‘60s psychedelia), but his comprehensive knowledge of music in general has greatly added to my knowledge and appreciation of these art-forms and of those who “made the music.

    Tom’s musical focus over the years has spanned the gamut from a personal application of serial techniques to an even more personal voyage into various realms of experimentation. Throughout his oeuvre, however, a “core sound” seems to manifest itself which identifies a work as being “his.” Tom personifies the “serious composer.”

    Tom’s work will continue to be “must-hear” music. And “Thanks!” for doing what you do, Tom!

    Dino DiMuro
    I’m proud to be able to say a few words about my friend of over 25 years, Tom Furgas, for this honor that is LONG overdue!

    For Tom Furgas, the term artist spotlight is especially apt, since Tom absolutely embodies what it means to be an Artist, as opposed to “just” a home taper.

    For some artists, the creation of the artwork (even more than the artwork itself) is the most important part of the process (Cristo and his wraps come to mind), and Tom is all about CREATION… so much so, that he literally GIVES HIS CREATIONS AWAY.

    I’m talking about Tom’s OneOfAKind series, a process I STILL can’t get my head around. Tom creates a musical or sound work specifically for the recipient, on the spot, with no edits, re-dos, or sequencing. Whatever comes out at that moment IS the disc. And then, he creates some very cool artwork, accompanied by a carefully-printed track sheet. It LOOKS like an actual release and it SOUNDS like an actual release, but there is only the one copy.

    Wait, did I say “copy”? Because I meant the ORIGINAL. Yes, Tom sends you his MASTER, keeping no dub or backup file of the work for himself, no matter how good it has turned out.

    I… CAN’T… GET… MY…. HEAD… AROUND THAT!!

    Because I will admit, right up front, that there is a lot of EGO involved in home taping (just see how many times I refer to myself in this little tribute!) I have tried to keep copies of every single note of music I’ve played, good or bad. I have horribly-recorded jams, hours of bad guitar solos, and any mention of my name or music on the radio.

    But Tom, with alarming frequency, just TOSSES OFF his little masterworks, and doesn’t care that he never hears them again! (and oh yes: he also asks the recipient not to copy them!)

    I myself have received at least 10 of these works, in various formats. I can only imagine how many more have gone out into the world.

    Which leads to a parallel fact about Tom’s output: he is INSANELY PROLIFIC. There are artists who perhaps have a bigger back-catalogue, but Tom is prolific in Musical Ideas. And the proof here is a pair of releases, bookended from early in his career to around 2004.

    The first of these was a cassette called BLIP CULTURE. This tape blew my brain apart, because it was a collection of about 100 outtake snippets (or was it 200?) on two sides of a C-60 cassette… and with each and every melodic fragment, with every abandoned experiment, I kept asking myself: “WHY would he throw THAT one away? Or THAT one? Or THAT ONE?”

    BLIP CULTURE was a challenge to justify to myself that I ALSO was that prolific, and I made up a tortured rationale: “Well, if I REALLY took my time and combed through EVERY ONE of my master tapes, I’m sure I could ALSO make a BLIP CULTURE tape!” This was a lie that I kept telling myself, just so I would not give in to despair, and this lie served me pretty well for many years, even with all of Tom’s Official Releases and his Experimental Works and Classical Performances and his work with the group Courtesy Patrol, etc. etc. etc.

    And then, Tom released his fucking 12 CD SET. Packed full of more ideas than God made allowance for, when the universe was created.

    And this was, of course, a LIMITED RELEASE.

    And he never bothered to make a “Best Of The 12 CD Set” version, as I surely would have done.

    That’s when I gave up.

    Tom is simply one of the most creative, prolific, and genuinely artistic people I’ve had the honor to know. And the rest of us must be content to stand in his shadow.

    Tom is also a legendary mail collaborator. I sometimes wondered if it were his lifelong mission to make a tape with every well-known name in the cassette network, because offhand I can’t think of anyone he hasn’t done SOMETHING with, including hard-to-contact artists like DK and John Oswald.

    Tom also found a way to save money by pioneering a new way of mailing out his tapes: he’d use a standard letter envelope, wrap his tape (often a pre-recorded cassette that he reused, also saving money) and its paper cover carefully within the envelope, and then write AUDIO RECORDING – PLEASE HAND STAMP on the outside. This way, minus the extra weight of the cassette case, he only needed two first class stamps, which gave Tom the ability to send out many more tapes to many more contacts. Since most cassette artists had extra cases sitting around, it was easy for the recipient to complete the process.

    What I find most fascinating about Tom’s body of work is that his early tapes, while brilliant, were definitely on the lower end of fidelity, and his home studio was obviously not state of the art. It was a point of pride for Tom that although he used old drum machines and hissy tape decks, he was able to take these raw elements and create works that were admired, enjoyed, and inspiring to countless other tapers. Experiencing Tom’s output was like tuning in on a shortwave radio (which coincidentally, Tom also used as an instrument) to catch a classic Mahler symphony or the latest experiments from Morton Subotnik or John Cage: through the murk and haze lurked brilliance and intelligence. Tom’s story is something I remember when people complain that they can’t work with the equipment they have, that if they only had such-and-such they could create a masterpiece. Bullshit!

    Of course, it did not take Tom very long to upgrade his instruments and his studio, and the improvements in sound quality only egged him on to greater heights. His works today are a perfect melding of inspiration and execution.

    And after all this, a few words about the music:

    Tom, as anyone who has heard him quickly realizes, is quite an accomplished musician. He reads and writes music notation, and can play the works of the masters on the keyboard in real time. This fact alone places him in rarified air, since home taping tends to celebrate the punky, DIY, untrained upstarts among us. The best of his written works have a medieval, baroque quality that reveal new surprises with each listen. Much of his work would be accessible to the most conservative blue hairs among us.

    On the other end of the spectrum, Tom loves experimentation with sounds and modified instruments and electronics, and he loves releasing stuff that can induce headaches and panic in the more faint of heart. He seems to find the strangest disembodied voices on the planet to overlay onto his bizarre backings.

    My favorite works by Tom are when he skates the thin line separating these two extremes, and fortunately for me, he tends to land there quite often.

    I’ve taken a lot of space but have barely scratched the Furgas surface. Tom has also dabbled in visual art, collage, photography, poetry, and music reviewing. His kind and generous letters have been the entry point for many home tapers looking to join the underground. He has always been supportive and honest with me, even when something I’ve done strikes him as poorly mixed or not quite complete. My years in the network would be inconceivable without Tom always waiting there, on Paisley Avenue, ready to talk or trade or listen with me and all his longtime pals.

    Bill Lehman
    Tom is a musical genius and a great friend. Tom is an all around artist as my home is a gallery of Tom’s fabulous paintings and collages. I would like people to appreciate Tom for what he contributes to “mankind’s loftiest achievement…art”. I am fortunate to have know Tom for 38 years. He is a true inspiration to all who realize art is intended for personal enjoyment and reward. Tom is my inspiration and mentor for my creative side.

    Listen to the “Six Tunes” 7” vinyl released by Tom in 1989 here.

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